Finale with Candice Toone | The Bachelorette S20 E9

We’ve reached the end of Charity’s season! For this final episode of the Bachelorette, I brought Master Coach Candice Toone on to break everything down with me. 

Candice Toone is a former Marriage and Family Therapist turned Master Certified Life Coach and the founder of the Defying Gravity Revolution. Her mission is to help women stop wondering if they married the wrong guy and start enJOYing the marriage they imagined when they said "I do". She's a podcaster, author, connoisseur of grapefruit juice and a Jazzercise enthusiast. She lives in Utah with her husband, 3 children and their dog. 

Connect with Candice Toone: 
Website: http://www.candicetoone.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candicetoonecoaching/
Additional Resources: https://linktr.ee/candicetoonecoaching

Interested in 1:1 life coaching with Lynn Grogan? Click here for details: https://lynngrogan.com/work-with-me/

Follow Lynn Grogan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lynngrogan/
Original music by David Delaney of The Whiskey Boys: https://www.whiskeyboys.com/

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Transcript

Lynn Grogan:

Alright. Welcome back to the reality show life coach podcast. Today, we're going to talk about season 20 episode 9. Bachelorette, the finale. We're finally here. And with me today, I have special guest Candice Toone, Candice. Why don't you introduce yourself?

Candice Toone:

Hi, everybody. I'm Candice Toone. I am a former Marriage and Family Therapist, turned master certified life coach, and a huge fan of the Bachelor and Bachelorette. So is basically my dream job to come and dish on all of this with you.

Lynn Grogan:

Yes. And what do you do in the coaching world?

Candice Toone:

Yes. So in my coaching world, I help women stop wondering if they married the wrong guy as part of my Defying Gravity Revolution program. Super fun. And then I also host a trauma-informed community for coaches to learn how to recognize trauma responses in their clients and, keep their Zoom rooms really safe for that.

Lynn Grogan:

And that is how I know you because I went to a workshop earlier this year. Was it this year? Yes. This year in Utah, and now I'm in your mentorship. So it's it's fun to me to have this experience alongside that one. So thank you for all that you do in the world, ma'am.

Candice Toone:

Oh, thank you.

Lynn Grogan:

I'm gonna do quick quick as I can. Show recap, and then we're gonna get to it. So, just as a reminder for all the humans. We checked back in with Charity. She is in Fiji, with Aaron B, who has come back, of course. He wants to stay. He does stay for now, but I think In back of my mind, I was like, he's it's like 2 minutes later, he's gonna be out of here, which is actually what happened. not shocking at all. She sent him home.

Candice Toone:

I was so surprised that she sent him home, though. I was like Wait. I thought he was gonna be the winner, but, anyways.

Lynn Grogan:

Well, I know we're gonna talk about him later because there's some juicy clips of him at paradise. Oh, and then we have the meeting of the parents. Joey goes first, and he has his very charming self. And then we have Dotun, which We'll talk about both of those experiences today too. we have the final dates with both of them in and then We have the proposals, and I don't know about you, but I hope it was done, but I was super shocked when I saw, like --

Candice Toone:

I was really surprised too. Yes. With the blue suit coming out of the van, I was like.

Lynn Grogan:

but honestly, I think I would equally shocked if it was Dotun that walked out. I wasn't prepared for either of them to be sent home.

Candice Toone:

They were both really good guys.

Lynn Grogan:

Yes. And so Dotun proposes, and she says, yes. They are engaged. And at the very end of the episode, Joey is announced as the next Bachelor.

Lynn Grogan:

What do you think of him as the pick?

Candice Toone:

I am worried for him, to be totally honest because he is, like, the nicest, most, like, self-effacing man, I've ever seen on the Bachelor, and I'm like, I hope those women don't eat him alive. That's what I really hope.

Lynn Grogan:

They are definitely gonna eat him alive.

Candice Toone:

Well, but I don't know if he I hope that he can, like, stand up for himself in that frenzy. I hope he can because he's adorable.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. And, like, he got such a, like, beautiful edit this whole season, but I'm sure there were moments where, you know, he was having trouble or whatever, but they just didn't show it.

Candice Toone:

So I think we're gonna be interesting to see all the sides of him, but they reveal him the new one.

Candice Toone:

you make a good point. I was like, They did edit out, like, what they wanted us to see. And I sometimes forget that when I get immersed in the show. I'm like, what we see is exactly who they are. I can really get caught up in that.

Lynn Grogan:

Same. Same. And it was, like, to me, and I know we're about to talk about this, but, like, you know, when, Charity's family met Dotun, I was, How are you not in love with him?

Candice Toone:

I was very surprised by that too. And they were really not at least based off of what the clips showed. were not feeling him very much at all. And I was very surprised by that because I thought for sure he would have an in with the parents. He seemed so sure of himself, so confident so into her all season long, but I was like, what are they seeing that we're not seeing?

Lynn Grogan:

I know. I know. It's like, how dare you? How dare you not love him?

Candice Toone:

Right? Didn't you see the cute things that he's made for her, the slideshow, and the treasure hunt?

Lynn Grogan:

And his outfit for the Barbie scenes when he was Ken. Like, so cute. I know. I was I was very confused by that. And so, I mean, maybe this we should talk about first because if you're if you're ready to dive into coachable moments, is, like, I think probably one of the juiciest scenes in this whole episode was meeting the family. Joey, you know, he's a tennis pro. He came across very, very smooth. Family seemed to love him. Dotun not as much. And I think this was really confusing for Charity. Like, to see her family's reaction, I think she thought that they were gonna respond very, very differently. what did you think? Like, what did you think of that interaction?

Candice Toone:

I think it was hard because I really did just wonder. I'm like, what is he saying or doing that's causing that, like, rigidity in them? There was almost like a protective wall that was, like, between him and them, and I'd I didn't see anything on the clips that I was like, it makes sense of responding that way based off of what we've seen. So there must have been something or some vibe or some energy in the room that was that we couldn't feel as viewers because I just I just really didn't know why they didn't love him.

Lynn Grogan:

That's a really good point because I was also confused. At one point, they made a comment like, oh, this is the type of guy that Charity often picks.

Candice Toone:

Yes.

Lynn Grogan:

And so I was like, maybe that's the cause for the rigidity, but I also didn't see it, though, because she identified Xavier as being that person.

Candice Toone:

I was thinking that too. Xavier she said, reminded her, her past boyfriends, but the whole time she had been saying it's so easy with Dotun. There's no, like, coach speak mind management they have to do around him because it just flows so naturally. But if it's true that her family was sensing something that had been, like, heartbreaking or hurtful to her before. That would make a lot of sense that they're like, we don't wanna see you go down this road again because we love you so much.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it yeah. I was trying to get a read on them. Like, is this the like, is this protectiveness on their part? Are they biased because they saw Joey first? Is there something else going on, like, all of the above? And it's just so hard to say. It's hard to know, and we also don't know, like, how much of this is an edit on the producer's part to throw us off the scent of Dotun getting, like, the final, the the ring at the end or her getting the ring from Dotun at the end.

Candice Toone:

It was interesting when they interviewed the mom, they just only ask for the one question in the actual, like, finale. She still didn't seem that warm to him. And I was I was surprised by that because the parents were sitting together. And his parents were warm and, like, body language, like, inclusivity. And The mom she wasn't, like, unkind then, but she was definitely still, like, kind of feeling like I'm in my space or having these boundaries. And so I wonder if mom's just getting on board to be kind or if she still has some of her reservations.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. I was watching them maybe as closely as Charity had. Like, every time they showed one of those little video clips in the bottom left corner, I was like, what is mom doing? Is she happy? Has she approved? And it was just it was a weird, kind of weird space to be in because I, like, That is exactly kinda how Charity showed up. Like, she was looking to her family for approval, and I'm like, I'm looking to your family for approval.

Candice Toone:

Yeah. And it makes sense that when Charity and her mom went outside, and she's like, I just want you to tell me. And her mom was like, I'm not gonna tell you. And I understand both sides of that. I understand why Charity wants to hear the truth from her family, of course, because she wants to use that information from our trusted advisors to make a big decision. And I also understand why mom said no. because mom probably doesn't want to sway her or be blamed later if it doesn't work out. And I really think if I was coaching them, I would be like, there's room here to have some warmth and connection even if you don't change your mind about what you do because they they both just put up their walls, it seemed like. And it was just it was kind of like a tug of war. Tell me don't tell me. Tell me. Don't tell me. And I'm curious if I was talking to them, I would be like, what's going on there that this conversation has to be contentious, because I believe they could have disagreed about whether or not mom's gonna share without having that. But it was the It was the pulling that I think ultimately made it so hard on both of them.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's such such a good point too because It makes me wonder if that's still a little bit there. Just seeing her response.

Lynn Grogan:

and it's almost was surprising because, you know, Charity's background as a therapist. And I don't know. I'm wondering, like, where her mom's coming from and all of that, but it really did seem I don't know. Like like, hopefully, they've repaired from this since then.

Candice Toone:

I have to respect her mama for not wanting to you some answers. And I just think mom could have I don't know what was going on for mom, of course, and it could be edits as well. But I think just as simple as being like, I know why you want me to tell you. You want me to tell you. I get that desire. And as your mother, I believe it's not best for me to say because I want it to be your choice. But I totally get I get that it sucks. I'm not telling you. I totally get that. Like, even that connection, I think, could have made it a little bit more fluid for both of them.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. I think so too. And, you know, it's almost like you saw a very young side of Charity come out in this too.

Candice Toone:

She's like, whatever. And she kinda, like, storms away, which no judgment for her. I get that she probably felt super activated and, like, I'm not getting the support I thought I would have, and that's a surprise that I don't like dealing with. but you're absolutely right. That it it brings us back to our younger experience of not being heard or not having our requests honored. I think that's probably what was going on.

Lynn Grogan:

To me, Charity seemed like maybe preteen to teenager here. Like, if that's what personality was coming out, do you think that impacted her mom's parenting of her in that moment, because it, like, what you were describing before sounds like almost an older daughter.

Candice Toone:

I think probably. Like, of course, whatever we're doing impacts anyone in relationship with. And so, of course, Charity's mom could sense that Charity was not pleased with her. And then Charity's mom probably had, like, a little bit of a, like, activated response to that as well because all of us want our kids to, like, sort of people we love to be in support of us. And when we sense that's not the case, it makes sense that we kind of, like, slip into those familiar patterns, even if they're not the most helpful ones.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And, like, and to me, it was almost like as a viewer, I wanted to see that her mom had come around because it felt so, like, unresolved for me.

Candice Toone:

Especially with this big, like, coming together, they're getting married, it sounds like. Like, that's still the plan. And so I everyone wants that to be resolved before, like, all those memories that are gonna be imprinted for life.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. And so I appreciate though that she's stuck to her guns.

Candice Toone:

Yes. And I think she can stick to her guns even now and be like, I still stand by what I did, and I under understand why you wanted something different. There's room for both of our perspectives here. It's probably the cleanest way to get to that resolution. And I wanna applaud Charity too because she is a mental health professional. I think a therapist.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah.

Candice Toone:

And it just is so nice to see, Oh, therapists are humans too. Like, coaches are humans too. Like, we're allowed to have our own emotions. even if we have all this training and in our professional life, we might have responded differently. I just think that was really courageous of her and, a good example of how We're all humans.

Lynn Grogan:

I love that because there are so many moments in my own life where it's like, well, hey, you're a coach.

Lynn Grogan:

You should be able to manage your mind here? And I was like, no. No. No. I'm a messy human being right now.

Candice Toone:

Okay. It's okay. Like, our nervous systems give those danger cues for a reason. And sometimes the best thing to do is just to leave the situation. It might have been better for Charity to just be like, okay. We're done talking now so that neither one of them said something they would have got it later.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. I do also wonder too. Like, if Charity actually had been confused about who she was picking in that moment, my guess is that she actually already knew it was gonna be Dotun, and that's why she was a little bit more responsive.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. Yeah. And so if she actually had been open and, like, had been wanting their opinions on things. I think maybe she would have approached her mom a little bit differently.

Candice Toone:

And maybe mom knew, oh, you're asking me, but you really don't want my opinion. maybe mom could tell. Right?

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. I think there's also a little bit of, like, my own conditioning here that, like, oh, she's a mother. She should be, like, warm and friendly, and she should be giving her daughter, like, a different experience. I'm like Totally. mom is herself. Like, she's gonna show up as herself, and I appreciate that.

Candice Toone:

I think that's such a good point because I don't think I even saw that in myself that I was be like, you're supposed to make this a certain way for her. My conditioning is showing as well. So -- Yeah. -- excellent. Yeah. Excellent. That was really good.

Lynn Grogan:

And they kept cutting to, Peter Weber, former Bachelor, his mom, in the audience. And I just kept on thinking about the contrast of the 2 women. Like, I was like, oh, man, if this was a different scene in the world, Peter's mom is very much the type would have been like, oh, you must pick this person. Like, she would have said, and it's just a very different relationship. But, yeah, I mean, I think we're just used to seeing moms on this show that are different than how Charity's mom showed up. And so I think that was also impacting my viewing.

Candice Toone:

I think so too. And I noticed, like, In my conditioning, like, it's typically, like, historically, I don't know that this is, like, active in my life right now, but like, growing up, like, the dad gives permission. The dad, like, the the the fiance to be asks the dad, Can I have her hand? And so it was surprising to me that her dad was so, like, out of that conversation.

Lynn Grogan:

That is a really good point because they didn't show the typical scene, which is, you know, the men nervously asking for permission.

Candice Toone:

Like, all of that was absent? And it was interesting because The only input that we got from the dad, well, the least only one that stuck out to me was when they the women left the room, and the dad was like, He kinda, like, rolled his eyes. He's like, here they go again, which just maybe goes to show the family dynamics in that, which is not right or wrong. It's just interesting to see, like, he might be the more passive one. And so maybe that's why she was looking to her mom so strongly.

Candice Toone:

That's probably where the approval or the guidance came from. Maybe.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely right. I'm just, like, thinking through us. Yeah. Like, we didn't see the typical dad. We didn't see the typical mom. Sister was just, like, I have very little memory of what actually went on with her sister. And so, you know, And I also think, like I said, like, with Joey coming in first, they were biased by him. He's he puts on a good show. I'm sure he's used to him moving with lots of people as a tennis pro, and so if Dotun's a little bit nervous.

Candice Toone:

Why is he nervous? The other guy was so smooth. Yeah.

Candice Toone:

like you said, before we started recording, the brother was totally absent. Which is just fascinating to know. And I don't think he was in the final rose audience either.

Lynn Grogan:

He wasn't. Yeah. They made him, like, super undercover brother.

Lynn Grogan:

Like, I do wonder, like, if Nehemiah had been there, they seem very, like, they have a strong sibling bond that we just have with her sister if he would have provided something. And so maybe that's he wasn't there because he would have said something to bias her more.

Candice Toone:

Or maybe that's why she was seeking so much from her mom because Nehemiah would normally give her that. I don't know. Just yeah. Fascinating to speculate.

Lynn Grogan:

I'm fascinated too. And, again, I feel unresolved by it, so I might have to watch her on dancing with the stars to see if they stay together.

Candice Toone:

And then here's mom giving her the mirror ball applause. I know that well, I guess we are kinda moving on, but speaking of, like, watching it in the future to see how it goes when she came out to talk to Joey. She wasn't wearing her ring. Mhmm. And so I was like, oh, no. because they keep they always say, like, the most shocking thing that's ever happened, and I was worried that they had broken up or something. because she wasn't wearing her ring then. And I don't know if they just didn't want spoilers, or I don't know why she wouldn't have been wearing her ring. But when they came out and I saw them together, like, they looked for all intents and purposes from what I could see like they were super happy. So that made me feel a little more resolved around what we saw in Fiji.

Candice Toone:

Maybe their mom maybe mom will see you in time, but this was a good choice. Hopefully.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. And, you know, if, like, his season on the Bachelor and there's a total train wreck that might also seal the deal for him. Yeah.

Candice Toone:

You're like, oh, dodged the bullet. We didn't even know.

Lynn Grogan:

Oh, man. well, speaking of, like, I'm sure this is gonna be a dumpster fire. We're gonna talk about, like, we saw some clips.

Lynn Grogan:

Bachelor in Paradise, which I think, to me, that's my favorite of all the bachelor franchise. It's just ridiculous, and it's wonderful. They bring the castaways to an island.

Candice Toone:

That's an interesting, like, strategy. Right? You couldn't find love here. So let's send you to debauchery island. and give you a little bit of a vacate. Oh, it's just crazy, but go on.

Lynn Grogan:

It is just crazy. Well, you wanted to talk about because we had some interesting scenes where you see, like, Aaron B. Lovey dovey over Charity.

Candice Toone:

And, like, flew across the world to tell her, you are the mother of my children, he said. I'm like, he was like, for real serious, but then not even 6 months later, he was over it, I guess.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. I'm always amazed by that, though, because it's just like, or, like, Joey becoming the bachelor. Like, okay. Like, how this makes zero sense in my head. We just watch you being heartbroken.

Candice Toone:

Yes.

Lynn Grogan:

And now you're ready for love.

Candice Toone:

What's what's the grieving period? And, like, I do wonder, like, the emotional and keep, like, hopping from one relationship to another. I mean, maybe it'll be fine, and they really did get the closure they needed. But I don't know if anyone's vetting that. I don't know if they're vetting that themselves, and I'm I worry about it a little bit.

Lynn Grogan:

I do too because, honestly, if they were vetting it, they'd be vetting it to make sure they used to well, we're still grieving so that they would have good TV. Like, I think they would use it against the contestants.

Candice Toone:

It's so true. They like to stir the pot and poke at it just because of the way that this is set up, which brings us to an interesting thing that you mentioned is they always say, well, I signed up for that. I signed up for that. Yep. I think it's a, a natural transition to be like, yes, they did sign up for it. And what exactly does that mean? Does that mean we get to, like, invalidate their emotions or let we get to be like, I don't know. Sorry. You're famous. So that comes with the territory. So suck it up. I don't know. What do you think about that?

Lynn Grogan:

I don't know. I think about that in lots of different context. It could be like, well, you started out your own business. Of course, it's gonna be kind of like rollercoaster. Well, you got married. Like, of course, it's gonna be fill in the blank. Like, I feel like we could say that about a lot of things, but specifically set about people on reality TV of, like, you signed up for this. So, therefore, you shouldn't get to feel, have an experience. Anything.

Candice Toone:

I -- I think the phrase is interesting in that, like, I think it's actually a can be a healthy phrase. I did sign up for this. I knew what to expect. So, yes, I had consent here. And consent doesn't mean that I wouldn't have a human response. I think that's the part if we go way to that side, but and we expect them to just, like, roll with it just because they signed up for it. I think that part is unhealthy. But the very initial, I did sign up for this. I knew what I was getting into So I support myself and my decision to be here, and I still can have my feelings, which I think was makes Brayden an interesting character, actually. I know we're supposed to talk about this episode, but I just wanna throw back to him for a minute because he really embodied I think. He's like, I knew what I signed up for. And by the way, I think it wasn't a good choice for me to sign up for just being here with, like, competing with all these guys, and he got hated for that, which I I felt bad for Brayden because I was like, Listen, all he's saying is that this environment doesn't work for him, and he's not sure. He can, like, fall in love with a stranger while twenty other people are always falling in love with him. go in love with her. And I I actually, like, appreciated that about him. That's some honesty that he didn't hold himself to I have to fill a certain way just because I signed the paperwork.

Lynn Grogan:

Yes. I've I've been going back and forth on that all season because I think when you're like, commenting it on a real time, you're like, how dare you, Brayden? But then in, like, in reflection, it is it is really like, yeah. Well, even if you sign up for something, how are you supposed to know what it's like? Like, if you already know what it was gonna be like, you might not even do it in the first place. Like, I've never had the experience of dating x amount of people the same time. I'm sure you haven't either.

Candice Toone:

Never. Never. So we can, like, guess at what it might be like. But then if the reality proves to be different, the thing that really struck me about Brayden, and he was just honest about it.

Candice Toone:

Whereas, like, nothing against Aaron. I don't know Aaron at all, but he was like, no. I'm 100% into Charity the entire time. And then except for as soon as I'm dumped, I'm just over here with all these ladies on the Bachelorette or the Bachelor pad or whatever it is, Bachelor in Paradise. Yeah. And I'm just like, It sounds a little bit like it's possible that if we require ourselves to be like, I signed up for this, I'm all in, and that's the mark of success, we might be disconnecting from ourselves a little bit. And that might be why they didn't like Brayden is because he didn't disconnect from himself, even if he was kind of like an a hole maybe, but He he was at least being really, really honest that whole time, which is just interesting.

Lynn Grogan:

It is interesting. No. You're right. Because if you say I signed up for this, so therefore, I shouldn't feel you would be the whole time, and that's the, like, socially acceptable way on the Bachelor. Like, that's how you're supposed to behave.

Candice Toone:

It's the worst way to build a relationship, though. Totally. So no wonder many couples fail because they've been playing a part this whole time. Well, meaning, I'm sure, because they wanna be like, in for the process and whatever that means. But then if they have had to kind of like divorce parts of themselves all the way along, it makes sense that when camera stopped rolling. It's those parts come back in, and it's hard to navigate.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. And I think that's maybe why I found myself drawn to Dotun is I felt like he wasn't disconnecting as much as maybe the other men were. It felt like you were getting maybe a little bit more of a genuine response Like, obviously, after the cameras roll, it's they have to, like, basically meet each other all over again. Like, hey. What's your phone number? Also, I need to know everything about you. Yeah. So but I got a sense that he was trying to figure out the game as he was playing it. And the other guys were like, I know how this goes. I'm supposed to shut off right now.

Candice Toone:

Yeah. And unconsciously, for the most part, and without ill intent. Right? It's just the socialization, especially because it's been on for what, like, 400 seasons, so people know what it's like. at least they think they do. So, yeah, I think you're right. Like, having to play by the rules is a challenging way to build a relationship.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. And I think it it's totally makes sense to me why they all bond with each other because who else in the world is really gonna know what it's like. Yes.

Candice Toone:

Like Stockholm Syndrome. That was sort of flippant, but it's kind of like we're all going through this event together that really truly no one else understands. No one else understands what it's like to be in this house under scrutiny deciding I know I'm supposed to be in love with this girl, but I actually don't even know her, or maybe I am starting to be in love with her, and don't and all of you are too. Like, nobody knows what that's like except for them. So, of course, they'd bond.

Lynn Grogan:

Totally. And, like, nobody wants to take a step back and be like, hey. You know what? Charity has expressed to us, like, what a big deal infidelity is for her. But I'm not allowed to see what she's doing as Like, you know, cheating on me.

Candice Toone:

I guess it's not infidelity because the disclosure is there, but I don't and I guess the in consent is sort of implied because they signed up for it again. There's that price. But it it probably does bring up some unexpected feelings when they're like, I knew that would happen, but seeing it actually happen feels different than what I thought.

Lynn Grogan:

But then you're not allowed to feel it because you --

Candice Toone:

Oh, because you signed up for it.

Lynn Grogan:

The only time you really see the roles bend around that is around Fantasy Suites. We didn't see it on this season, but lots of other seasons. And maybe you remember this. It's like, Okay. You can go to the fantasy suites, but you're not allowed to, like, sleep with somebody. Or you can, like, I'm gonna, like, express to you.

Candice Toone:

Like, they have both conversations out loud. Okay.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. Or there's an expectation of, hey, if you told me that you love me, then you're not gonna do x, y, and z with this other person. And it's it's kind of a gray zone on this show of what the rules are in a very, very structured rule system of the show.

Candice Toone:

That's a good point. And I can imagine how that would be really challenging to deal with because for Charity, from her perspective or any one that's like the Bachelor or the Bachelorette. Like, they're like, I wanna make the most of this experience, and I really wanna, like, flesh out my relationships with everyone. So I don't wanna have my rules. Probably. That would make sense if they didn't want that. But it also makes sense that their their suitors, their, contestants would be like, but if I'm supposed to commit to you, how how do we have those separate rule? How do we have those uneven rules? Like, that that would be very challenging to manage. I agree.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. Something I was just, like, thinking about as you were talking was, like, I wonder what it's like to watch this show back. like sitting are they watching it sitting alongside their partner and you're seeing other connections.

Candice Toone:

And we don't wanna be angry with them, but I think it would be natural if we were. Like, but we just yesterday, you said this to me, and now you're saying that date? Like, that I think that would be really hard. I'm if I was the Bachelor, I might be like, let's never watch that.

Lynn Grogan:

100%. And, you know, if you have children someday, don't watch that. Do not.

Candice Toone:

But I'm sure they all do. It would be hard to not. You'd be so curious, I bet.

Lynn Grogan:

Oh, you'd be so curious. And also, like, who doesn't wanna want to watch their love story played out again. Yeah.

Candice Toone:

You're like, I wonder this is what they should do. ABC should be like, we're gonna edit out, so it's just you guys. That's our wedding present to you. ABC, if you're listening to this podcast, I think that would be a beautiful present that you could do for the couple. Edit out everyone else. just do the scenes of them.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. Or if you leave them in, go back and give them terrible edits.

Candice Toone:

Yes. Yes. Either way. Obviously, he should have chosen me. Look at him.

Lynn Grogan:

he's got spinach in his teeth. Of course.

Candice Toone:

Ridiculous.

Lynn Grogan:

I also wonder too, like, how much watching it back impacts your own narrative around your store your love story.

Lynn Grogan:

It's like being narrated by ABC. So she's watching it back. She has her she and Dotun, Joey, all of them have their initial experience of, like, We were there. And then you watch it back and see yourself as a character alongside your partner who is also a character. of, like, how does that impact your thoughts on the relationship?

Candice Toone:

It's yes. For sure. And especially after, like, like, 2, 5 years into the marriage, if you end up getting married, like, No one's following you around anymore, and no one's, like and so it's probably an interesting transition from, like, our life is produced. right here as we got to know each other, and then it so isn't. And how do we navigate that change? We can love and honor that experience, but can we still like, create this connection for ourselves without all the extra production value.

Lynn Grogan:

And I'm sure they provide zero support on that.

Candice Toone:

But by the way, you should come back many seasons later and still, like, like, bring your audience with you, Trista, that was 20 years ago. Bring your audience with you because we want you to be on the show today. So, yeah, interesting.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. Okay. So one of the things I really wanna, like, get your take on is, just like, unrequited love. You know, we see that scene with her and Joey. Obviously, they have gone their ways. I get a sense that maybe the consolation prize of being the Bachelor has helped him maybe, like, mentally move on a little bit just in thinking about, like, parties. Maybe, maybe not. But -- Yeah. -- I just wonder, you know, in thinking about your niche, like, maybe I picked the wrong guy. It, like, I wonder when you don't have I don't know. A lot of people think about, like, oh, if I had broke up with somebody, it's you know?

Candice Toone:

So many people think that it would be different if I had done something else. Yeah.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. And so I just wonder, like, maybe there's no grieving process there with Joey. Like may like, I just wonder if there's a what if that goes on in her brain and how somebody might work through that. Like, work through letting that relationship go so you can be fully present in the new one.

Candice Toone:

And he said and I respect this about him. I don't know if it was genuine or not. I but he said he's very poised in the final rose discussions. And he said watching it back, watching the footage back of her and Dotun was helpful for him because that might bring him some closure and that he's like, oh, I see how she was looking at him. I can see it. I think that would really help me. I could be like, oh, well, comparatively, obviously. I think that might have helped. So And I think there's something to be said for just because we're talking about oh, you want you asked me about sides.

Candice Toone:

With Charity, I think and with everyone, I my personal belief is and take it for what it's worth is, like, you could be happy with multiple people. I really think that's true. I don't really believe in, like, that there's only one person just because we've seen so many people, like, widows and things that get married again and are still happy. Right? So just don't think it's true. And I know I think it's a painful belief. so for her, I would just be like, listen, you chose Dotun for a reason. Your job for the rest of your relationship is to connect to those reasons. And if you want the relationship to keep going, then we wanna stay connected to that. And if you have new information that comes up about that, and then you can make a new decision at that point. But until we have any new information you picked on. So it's in service to your relationship to stay focused over there. Mhmm. And wondering about Joey just takes takes away from that. And so it's it's less about, like, the relationship with Joey or Dotun and more about the relationship with herself, I think. Like, can I trust my own decisions? Can I trust myself to make a new decision if I'd if, like, I don't know, if gotten start doing something that's unacceptable to her, can I trust myself to make a new decision? So it's really more of that. Like, can I have a relation with myself that puts me in charge, and I'm gonna support myself and the decision I made until I have a really good reason not to. Which I think she might already be kinda good at because she sent Aaron home, and she sent Xavier home without like, they could she's like, coulda had a free night with him or whatever, but she's like, nope. I know what I want. I know who I am. So I think she just wants to keep exercising those muscles even though, like, when Dotun just sucks on the floor or whatever. She might be like, Joey wouldn't have done that. But we just wanna, like, pull our brains back to, like, I picked him for a reason. Is this current thing reason enough for me to doubt myself or not? That's what it is.

Lynn Grogan:

Well and I think that's probably what makes it so important that her mom didn't tell her who she should pick because now she when she falls back to her, she'd be like, no. This is my decision. versus, oh, this is who my family thought I should pick.

Candice Toone:

Now I could kind of like blame them. Mhmm. Which I think is why possibly. It it sounded like that was mainly mom's reason for not. It's like I want you to be able to stand on your own 2 feet.

Candice Toone:

I and she said I believe you know Charity, and I want you to just strengthen that relationship between you and you to make decisions you can stand by.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. And maybe in that light, like, it's actually awesome. that her family seemed to like Joey more than done because there she is going, that's very confusing to me, but also.

Candice Toone:

because I know what I know. and I'm gonna go this way. Yeah.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. Yeah. But I like that idea of, like, just redirecting redirecting to the relationship you chose, because our brains are just gonna wanna naturally go there probably, especially if she's, like, watching it back and seeing, like, how delighted she was by Joey. There's, like, they had a beautiful relationship.

Lynn Grogan:

But It seems like a summer fling, like hot girl, summer with joey versus Dotun, and I really see, like, the out of many of the couples I've seen go through this show. I'm like, I actually legitimately think that they could have a relationship.

Candice Toone:

Yeah. and they were both so mindful of each other. And the the things that he did for her, I mean, the things don't cause our feelings, of course, but, like, Just the thought he put into, like, documenting their time together or highlighting their special moments. Like, he's clearly focused on then. And I love what he said at some point. He was like he said, we never talk about anyone else. We only just talk about ourselves, like, all through all of their dates. because sometimes men come on and they're like, well, this guy said that, and it's really hard for me because but Dotun didn't do any of that.

Candice Toone:

He was directing his brain towards is what I wanna be. This is where I am. This is my goal. And he is taking full responsibility for himself. And as long as charity does that for her own, decisions as well, I think it will just stay strong.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. I get a sense that she will. Like, they both strike me like that.

Candice Toone:

Yeah. It does seem that way. She's very feisty in the best way. She's like, this is what's okay. This is not what's okay.

Lynn Grogan:

and just also seeing, like, her parents dynamic, I was like, okay. Like, Charity seems the outgoing one, and maybe Dotun's a little bit more passive, like, her dad is. Like, maybe it's so she's kinda drawn too. Who knows?

Candice Toone:

But -- Could be.

Lynn Grogan:

yeah, it's just, I don't know. It'll be interesting to see. I don't I don't see her getting together with anybody else if she broke up with Dotun. I think she would move forward in life.

Candice Toone:

And hopefully they stay. I think they're adorable.

Lynn Grogan:

I think so too. I was pleased with that. I think there's maybe, like, one last thing. 1 or 2 last things I wanted to I had on the list here. oh, yeah. One of the things I wanted to ask you about is on proposal day. Obviously, everybody has these really big emotions, like, you know -- Mhmm. -- Charity has, okay, delighted because I'm about to get together with Sorry about the lawn mower. and then, you know, devastation, Joey. Like, I'm gonna have to break up with Joey. I mean, obviously, the men both have these wide range they're either going to get the answer they want or don't want on this day that's coming up. And how do you, like, how would you recommend that somebody, like, supports themself through that?

Candice Toone:

Yes. So, again, I'll I think this would be a time where it's useful to bring back in the phrase I signed up for this. I signed up for this, meaning I signed up on purpose to have big emotions today. So there's nothing wrong with me if I have big emotions. It's not I signed up for this, and so I should just have expected that, like, I'm kinda, like, just even kill. No. No. No. I signed up to to do an experience that would elicit big emotions from me. So if I have big emotions that makes sense and there's nothing wrong with me is what I would go into it saying. And then I like to tell my clients and what I would tell these people if they ask me is, like, I would just connect with yourself as much as possible by narrating it. I feel upset now because I'm I'm thinking I'm breaking this guy's heart. Of course, I feel upset because that's the story I'm telling, and maybe it's even true. And I don't wanna break his heart, so it makes sense that I feel all this panic, all of this, like, it makes sense given what's going on right now. And -- Yeah. -- the more we can just say, my emotions make sense given the experience I opted into, and I expected it might be like this. Kinda like when might take my kid to the dentist, I'm be a little scary. You're probably gonna feel scared while you're there. Nothing wrong with you. If you feel scared and we can handle it, that's probably where I would go and then be like, and it might seem weird in normal life to go from devastated to elated in that short window, and that is what we signed up for here. So it's not weird. You're not weird, but you went from devastated to elated. We just, on purpose, packed those experiences right back to back, which is kind of unusual. Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't mean you're unusual. It just means like, yeah. That's how that goes. It makes sense.

Lynn Grogan:

Right. And I think for all three of them, they put their, like, them as much of their whole self that they could into this, so it does make sense that you're feeling big emotions. And, you know, it wouldn't

Candice Toone:

be a little weird

Lynn Grogan:

at this point. No. Nothing wrong with you. I I like, what you had to say about, like, narrating the experience and just kind of, like, maybe taking a step back and watching it as it's going on and, like, it almost sounds like maybe the mothering that charity was looking for. Like, that the way that you just said that there just really seemed like very, like, kind and, like, there were being, like, you know, kind of, like, a parent had step in to talk to them in the moment.

Candice Toone:

Yeah. And that might be one of the ways that watching it back could be helpful because we as the the consumers of the the show, we naturally do that because we are actually watching it. Right? And so if they watch it back with that lens, like, oh, I'm watching a character. Of course, that character has those experiences. It makes sense that I would have too. That might be useful.

Lynn Grogan:

I could see that too. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, they might have, like, in doing this, like, I got the impression from the very early part of the season that charity is like, okay. I'm gonna, like, manage myself through this. I have all the skills and everything. So think when she got to this point, she did seem a little bit surprised, like, a little bit like, oh, there's a lot going on here. And so, like, of course, there is, like, of course, you are.

Candice Toone:

maybe even because she had thoughts, like, I'm a therapist. So, of course, I'll do better at this.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. Yeah. And it honestly, like, I mean, And watching it, I do think that she did feel a little

Candice Toone:

bit better. She looked amazing. Yeah.

Lynn Grogan:

I know. I was incredibly impressed because, honestly, Like, it's risky for her to career to come onto a show like this.

Candice Toone:

It really is. Yeah.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. If she wants to keep with it. Very risky. So, But, yeah, I I I wonder I'm just watching that back with her, like, like, what that experience is like, but it's it's nice to see her display of emotion because it might have been for Joey too because he he mentioned he blocked out in that moment.

Candice Toone:

Of course, you did. Right? Of course, you did. That's like a serious surprise that you were not expecting. Like, all the protective functions come up right then, of course. Yes. Of course.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. well, was there anything else, like, on your mind that you wanted to talk about before we wrap it up today?

Candice Toone:

I do wanna talk a little bit. And maybe I just want you to help me with this, but I was kinda mad at the way that she treated Joey when she, because I was like, listen. Lady. It's like, hello, Charity. But I'm like, she let him go on and on for a long time. And I was like, I think the kindest thing to have done there would have been to cut it off sooner. But and so I I'm really curious about why she did that. Like, she had to stop him from kneeling down. And I'm like, that went too far in my opinion. So I'm I'm curious to know if it like, the producers are like, you have to let him get through his whole thing or not. But I have seen on previous episodes that, like, some or previous seasons, like, sometimes they don't even let them come to the proposal thing. Yeah. And so I'm like, why did I'm just so curious about why they did that. And then afterwards, he was comforting her.

Lynn Grogan:

Yes.

Candice Toone:

And I was like, I was angry on his behalf about that because I'm like, listen, Charity, you're the decision maker here. So I kind of wanted her to be like, I'm gonna go manage my emotions with my fiance or with my parents, and I'm not gonna, like, make you the guy I'm dumping take on my emotions. So I just curious to know what you thought about that.

Lynn Grogan:

Man, as you're talking, I, like, I can tell how much I like a contestant based on how much I blame the producers for what happened because I was like, like, Charity would never do that. she would have, like, gone to his hotel room in the morning and taken him to the side and sat down next to him versus, like, yeah.

Candice Toone:

so -- And you might be totally right, but I just thought, like, she's letting him go on quite a bit. And and it was and then afterwards, he was, like, directing her not step in the mud. And he's like, it's okay. And I could see, like, he was trying to pull away from, like, holding her hands, but she's, like, holding on. And I'm like, I get that because she says she loved both of them, and it was really hard to let him go, but I'm like, you also need to let him go.

Lynn Grogan:

I agree. Yeah. No. He immediately was, like, taking care of her.

Candice Toone:

Which is why I'm worried about him next season. I'm like, okay. Come on, buddy. Yeah. So I I hope that he finds in the next season, like, like, I hope he lets it be about him. At least not, like, completely, maybe because he's kinda guy that would do that, but I'm like, I hope that you find room for yourself in the relationships that you're gonna have because if the relationship is all about serving the one person, I think that's not very sustainable. And I I hope that he finds room to for both of them to be strong members and have both of their needs met in whatever relationship he has moving forward.

Lynn Grogan:

No. I'm worried about him too because when they were doing that after after the final rose, he came on stage. And I think the first thing that they, like, when they were talking to each other, He was like, no. No. I care about how you feel in your experience. I don't remember exactly what he said.

Candice Toone:

This is definitely being directed. Mhmm.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. And so I guess I am very concerned for him in his season because of that tendency. And I also think he's gonna have a really hard time sending people home and giving very their messages on, like, I like you, but I don't see a future.

Candice Toone:

He's probably gonna have a hard time. Yes. And not with ill intent, but just because it's so uncomfortable for him to be honest about himself, it sounds like.

Lynn Grogan:

Yeah. I mean, he's talked about being a people. Please are on the show. And so he's not gonna wanna do anything that he thinks gonna cause harm to another human, but that's the show. Like, that's why they picked him for the show.

Candice Toone:

Which again is so beautiful on the producers part because probably wouldn't have watched next season, but now I'm like, but it's Joey. I gotta see I gotta, like, see if he's gonna be okay.

Lynn Grogan:

it's gonna be a train wreck, but then also, like, the golden bachelor, Jerry, I think he's gonna, like, I want him to, like, come in and be like, let me help you, Joey. Like, let me help you. Yes. Let me advise you. -- train wreck.

Candice Toone:

I know. Well, maybe we'll have to have another conversation about it then because I'm like, Joey. I hope and I hope Joey's family like, comes into rally around him. I I hope. We'll see. But

Lynn Grogan:

-- I hope so too. I don't know. I was a little bit worried at his hometowns that they were very active of him. So I it's, like, I will actually love to see his family do what charities family did for her, which is kinda like, no. I believe in you, and you can do this. And I don't know if this family will

Candice Toone:

When Joey's family was a little bit like, we kinda doubt you, actually. Maybe they should just fly us there. So if the ABC producers are listening, you and I can be his coaches in the back, and we're gonna be like, listen. Here's here's you're allowed to want what you want, Joey. It doesn't mean that other like, everyone on the show is a resource human means that you don't have to take care of all of them. Let's just let you take care of you. Because when you're taken care of, Joey, this is what I'd say then when you're taken care of, it's just gonna be so much easier for you to feed into a relationship that is the both of you. But when you're depleted, that's just it's just not gonna last. So, Joey, if you're listening, I have my heart going out for you, and please make room for yourself in your own relationship.

Lynn Grogan:

Same. And also, like, take a cue from Charity. If you need a break, it's okay to take break. It doesn't matter if you still have one final rose to hand out. Just take a break.

Candice Toone:

Take a break. Collect yourself. Stay connected with you and what you want because this is your marriage. This is your life. You deserve to have a room in it.

Lynn Grogan:

Mhmm. That is beautiful. Well, on that note, Candice, we're complete on this conversation for today. but, yeah, so good to talk to you. And where would somebody, like, go looking if they're gonna look for you online?

Candice Toone:

Yeah. If you wanna find me my website, it's CandiceToone.com. Candice is an with an e, also @candacetoonecoaching on Instagram. And, I'd love to hear you. If you want to reach out.

Lynn Grogan:

and I'll have links in the show notes, of course. So -- Perfect. -- Candice, thank you so much for coming on. It was a blast.

Candice Toone:

It was so fun to talk to you, and we'll see you around. Take care, Lynn.